Jennifer Levin
Today’s guest is Nicole Osmer, Founder and President of Health and Commerce, which was acquired by the Supreme Group in 2024. Nicole, her husband, and their five children endured the devastating Tubbs Fire in October 2017, losing their home and entire neighborhood to the flames.
In our first episode of the series, After the fire, Nicole takes us through the day of the fire, the immediate chaos of securing safety, and the immense challenges of balancing her family’s needs, the insurance process, and her leadership responsibilities—all while coping with the emotional aftermath of this traumatic event. We explore how the fire impacted her well-being and leadership style, offering insights on recovery, healing, and her efforts to support others facing similar crises in the Southern California fires.
Nicole, welcome and thank you so much for spending time with me today.
Nicole Osmer
Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity.
Jennifer Levin
Oh, my pleasure. Why don't you start off and just tell us a little bit about yourself.
Nicole Osmer
Well, I am a mother of five, and I currently live in Eagle, Idaho. I have a business that I run with my husband that we've had for about 10 years together, and we moved to Idaho about four years ago. So, before that, we lived in Northern California for 20 years.
Jennifer Levin
Wow, big change. Yeah, okay, okay, well, in 2017 and the reason you're here to talk with us today, your family was impacted severely by the Tubbs Fire in Santa Rosa, California, which was actually part of the Sonoma complex fires. And I did some research, and that fire began on October 8 and wasn't fully contained until October 31 and unfortunately, these fires were responsible for 24 deaths and caused over 100,000 people to evacuate and destroyed more than 53,000 homes. Excuse me, 5,300 homes. And until recently, until the fires in Southern California earlier this month, a couple weeks ago, these fires were among the most destructive fires in California history. So, tell us about your experience with the Tubbs Fire.
Nicole Osmer
Well, we had lived in Sonoma County at that point for just about two years. We had lived in the Bay Area for 15 years and had moved up to the Santa Rosa area with the intention of building a new house. So, we were living in the foothills of Santa Rosa, between Napa Valley and Sonoma Valley. And so the fire actually started on the Napa side and then came down into Sonoma Valley, and we lived because we were living in the hills in between. Our house was one of the first to burn. So, we, at the time we left our house, had no idea it wasn't like we saw other burning houses and realized, oh, we might lose our house. We really had no idea that that was even a possibility. I actually wasn't home at the time. I was working in my office in downtown Santa Rosa. It was late at night, but I used to spend pretty much one weekend per month doing invoicing for our business. So, I was not there. I was working late, and it was very windy, and my husband texted me and said, Maybe you should stay in the office tonight, because this wind is really crazy. And he was thinking about trees coming down, things like that, because we lived up, you know, in the hills, so it was a little bit of a windy drive to get to the house. And I thought, oh, that's not necessary, you know, it'll be fine. I wasn't too worried. But then his next text message to me, a little bit later, was that the neighbor had knocked on the door and that they were coming down into town, because it seemed like a good idea, that she had seen flames in the hills, and it seemed like a good idea to leave. At the time that that happened, my husband had really no idea we could potentially lose our house, so he didn't really try to take anything out of the house at all. It was, I think you're also sort of in denial, like this feels like an emergency situation, and yet it's so surreal. And I'm sure many of the people who lost everything in the fires in Southern California had that same experience. In fact, I just was looking at someone's Instagram story last night, and that's exactly what happened. They had no, they said. Someone said, Oh, maybe we should take our silver. And they said, No, we'll be back, you know. So, you want to be positive and think everything's going to work out. But so in our case, it was about 1130 at night. He got the kids in the car. We had a dog at the time that jumped in, and we also had two kittens that he didn't think he could find. And so he left them in the house again, not thinking that, you know, he just thought, well, we'll come back in the morning. They'll be fine overnight. And they came down to Santa Rosa, where I was in the in the downtown area, and we went to a hotel down the street. And it was pretty clear at that point, because while my husband was driving down the hill, he could see the sheriffs coming up to evacuate people. And it was very clear that that there was a fire that was coming toward us, you know, still very windy, and they, he could see the flames. Then at that point, once they were driving down the hill, so we were at the end of the line to get a hotel room, and just thought, you know, it's not likely they're going to have hotel rooms anymore by the time it's our turn. So, we went to a different hotel a little bit further north in the next town, north. And that was very surreal, also, because at that point a lot of people were coming in from other areas that had been evacuated as well. And so, we were standing I had made a hotel reservation on the phone while standing in line for one hotel. And then by the time we got to the other hotel, there were just like, lots of people coming in looking for rooms. So, at that point, we didn't know that our house, you know, we still didn't know whether or not we'd have our house, but it was very clearly an emergency situation, yeah, so we all ended up, all seven of us and our dog in one hotel room for the night. And my kids actually could see, I think, on Snapchat, that their high school was on fire. So, they were communicating through, you know, to their teenage kind of network through Snapchat before we even really knew anything.
Jennifer Levin
How old were the kids? Sorry to interrupt you, but how old were the kids?
Nicole Osmer
So, at the time, we had one in high school and the rest in middle and elementary school.
Jennifer Levin
So pretty young still?
Nicole Osmer
Yeah, our oldest at the time was a freshman in high school. Okay, yeah, so, the next day we had a neighbor who, let's see here, we had a neighbor who had animals, and he was able to get into the evacuation zone and check on his animals, and he confirmed that our house was gone the next morning. Basically, the whole neighborhood was pretty much gone. So, yeah, so that's how we found out.
Jennifer Levin
What do you remember feeling, or what was that like?
Nicole Osmer
It was pretty shocking. You know, I remember, kind of like, catching my breath like whoa. And as a mom, I think immediately you're thinking about your kids and how they're going to react. And also, okay, what does this mean? What do I need to do? Like, what next? Okay, just kind of processing the information. So, the immediate kind of reaction wasn't like as much about all the things that we material, things that we had lost, but for us, because we had left the kittens there and we actually had chickens, also we weren't as worried about the chickens, but just in terms of our attachment. But the kittens had been a gift to my daughter for her 11th birthday, and even though we'd only had them probably 10 days at the time, we were obviously very attached to them and worried about that and sad about that. And I do remember, you know, telling the kids our house burned down, and sort of having to explain the concept of insurance and how insurance works, that, no, that doesn't, this doesn't mean we're now poor. We have nothing ever, you know, we do have nothing, but it's going to be okay. We had insurance and, you know, so explaining that they were young enough that they didn't really, you know, fully understand how that all works, of course, at the time. So, so, yeah, it was, it was pretty shocking. And then just thinking through, okay, you know, we need somewhere to go and communicating to our immediate family. There's just a lot of, like, there's a lot of communications management too, because everyone's seeing it on the news and checking on you. You're getting all these messages and people asking how they can help. And it's, it's quite overwhelming, you know, in the immediate kind of day or two to, you know, after, because you're, you're thinking about other people's and your own feelings, as well as your family and other people kind of who want to help you and you want to be responsive and not just ignore people reaching out to you, but it's just a lot all at one time.
Jennifer Levin
I think overwhelming, so really powerful word that I've heard from so many people, devastating, overwhelming, overload, too much as I've been working with people in the Southern California fires, one of the things that I've noticed is there's a big push, you know, and different organizations of you know, resilience and healing and rebuilding, and I am really concerned that we still need you know, the community is still in crisis. They're still really struggling because this is such a traumatic event, and stabilization and safety is so important. And I'm curious how long did it take for you to feel and your family stabilized and safe again?
Nicole Osmer
Well, I will say we felt safe. You know, I think there's different types of safety. We weren't worried about our clinical safety, we were safe. Um, you know, I assessed pretty quickly that my kids were psychologically safe. They were okay, they weren't devastated. And when you're a part of an event like that that affects literally 1000s of people. You're not alone, so you're not asking, why me? right? Like, it's not just you. There's a whole community that's been impacted. So that sort of normalizes it in a way, and creates a little bit of community safety interims of other people that are, you know, and the same in the same journey that you're in. And definitely people understand where you are, like they're going through it at the same time too. Um, so I think as far as stabilization, once we had a place that we knew we could live in long term that was really helpful, because I actually, it's interesting what you said about rebuilding. You do hear a lot of people immediately saying, Well, we're going to rebuild, and we felt that way too. And you know, we're going to stay where we are. We love where we live. We're going to rebuild. And in our case, we already had building plans, because we had already planned to build a new house. So that was our initial inclination, too. And in fact, we thought, oh, we have this advantage because we already have plans, right? We already were in the process of getting approvals to build a house, and we'll be able to rebuild, and you know, some of the older people in our neighborhood, there were a lot of older people in our neighborhood and older houses, you know, they had lived there for decades, and they had a lot of memories. And that wasn't our case. We had, we had a lot of great memories, and our kids were extremely attached to the beautiful nature around us. They used to play in the trees behind the house, and there was a little pond we could fish in, and it was really stunningly beautiful, which is why we chose that area to settle and to build a house that we saw as kind of our longer term, like that was our vision. In the case of some of our neighbors, I think, you know, they're older, even in their 80s, and saying, Well, we want to rebuild. Well, the reality is a little bit different in terms of what the insurance will actually pay for, and whether or not that actually makes sense, if you're in your 80s, to build a new house at that point in your life and things like that. But that urge to like, we're going to come back, we're going to build, I think is healthy actually, because we're going to get through this, and everything can be back to where it was, and it takes some time to process: Well, this might be more of a permanent change than what I would have wanted or thought initially, and that was a journey for us that we initially were thinking, you know, we'll be one of the first to rebuild, and then we ended up, in the end, selling our lot. I was thinking about the question about stabilization, and I think until we finished going through the insurance process, it was hard to really feel like, okay, this is behind us, and we've recovered completely, like we can put this, we can close this chapter because it was a constant reminder. We had to catalog everything we lost. So, you're constantly thinking about everything you lost, and also you have this enormous thing you have to do this, yeah, very detailed spreadsheet. They want everything. I mean, they gave us a, I think it was like a $250,000 payment up front, so we weren't in and a lot of people wanted to give us money, and that didn't feel right for us. We had savings and we had a payment from the insurance company, but to get the full value of what you've lost, you had to catalog everything you owned. And I don't know if every insurance company is like that, or if that's typical, but that was our case, and it actually took us two full years to get through it, because it was work and such - it was my poor husband that that really was the one to do it. But as you can imagine, the last thing you want to do when you've just lost everything you owned is dwell on every single thing you used to have, yeah, think through every, you know, everything I bought on vacation, and everything you're, you know, it just, it's impossible, it's not possible, and it's, it's hard, and it's just really a difficult thing. You don't want to; you don't really want to think about it constantly. So, from the standpoint of stabilizing our family, once we had a location, we knew we could settle in and kind of make home, that was a good step, and then finally, closing the door on all of the insurance stuff, and not having to think about it anymore was really helpful to help us just move on from it completely.
Jennifer Levin
That's an interesting perspective, and I know a lot of people are really struggling with the insurance processes, and it's a long process. It's a very long process. So, you're dealing with all this in your personal life, but what about your business life? You wear so many hats, and how did the fire impact, or did it impact your ability to work?
Nicole Osmer
Well, definitely, in the short term, it's like you have to, you weren't planning to be on vacation, but you have a lot. You have to move your entire family and go, you know, buy, repurchase everything that you need to just live. You know, we left with just the clothes on our backs. Um, we didn't lose any cars because we, my husband had, we had when we didn't leave any on the on the property when we left. And I do want to actually mention a silver lining, or like, something that was that was good, that helped us in terms of the going back to your question about safety and stability, we actually ended up finding one of the two kittens, it hid under a shed that didn't burn down. And our neighbor who was going up to take care of the horses, our neighbors had horses, so he was, he was a retired Sheriff, so he was able to go up and take care of the animals. And he was feeding our chickens, who also survived because they were in a shed that didn't burn down, and he heard this little meowing, and it was one of the two cats who we still have today. He's got little burn scars on his ears, but he's totally a love. So, we did, that was a really, really happy thing to find that cat. And I have a video of, you know, my daughter going and picking him up from the from the man that found him, and just the cat just purring, and how happy she was, you know. So we like to believe the other cat is still roaming the hill somewhere, and didn't actually die in the fire, but you know, most likely we did lose one, but that was really, really great, because, you know, that's the worst, and people did lose their lives, and we lost our stuff, and you know that that puts a lot of things in perspective. And so, for our family and for a lot of people, it was actually on the news, and that was a really nice, happy story. So, but going back to your question about the work situation, our team was amazing. They all came together to help us. I think in a way, it was a positive, because I had held on to that invoicing job I had, I had hired a team, but still kind of felt like that was something I couldn't delegate that I needed to be the one to send out all the invoices. And I just absolutely hated doing it. And it took so much time, because we had about 40 different clients, that's a lot of invoices from one person to generate, review like, you know, and so at that point, I just had to give it up. I couldn't continue to do that anymore. So, I haven't done it since, and that's been great. I don't have to worry about it, and I don't. It kind of allowed me to see like I can trust my team, and that, you know things can function without you. And so, it helped me. I think if I had been an employee, I definitely would have needed some time off to be able to just focus on my family and rebuilding my life in terms of everything that you have to go back and buy and just to feel settled too. But it wasn't, you know, it was probably a couple weeks of like, you know, really, being not able to do much else, and then it kind of goes back to a little bit of normal. you get, you know, you adjust to your new situation. Make sure your kids are good, make sure they're where they need to be and I was able to work again before too long,
Jennifer Levin
Good, now that there's been some time between you and the fires, how would you say the experience changed you?
Nicole Osmer
Um, I think it was a good experience in some ways, so there were some positive things to come out of it. I think it definitely gives you perspective on what is important in life. And I'm not much of a minimalist. I like clothes and I like, you know, I so I it hasn't made me a minimalist at all. You'd be shocked how quickly you re accumulate things in your life. Um, I think the things that are the most painful to lose, like, you know, your kids’ drawings or photos or gifts, that's undeniably painful there, you know, you have pangs of, like, really, like, grief for those things that's very real, even though they're just things. But my grandmother had died before the fire, and I had some things that she had given me that were very special to me, that obviously we lost in the fire. So, my aunt called me and said at the time they were clearing out her house of like, the last remaining things, everybody in the family had kind of come and taken everything they wanted of hers to, you know, keepsakes. And she had actually given away a lot of things before she died, because she was older and, you know, had started trying to, you know, kind of give people things that she thought they would want that were meaningful to them. But my aunt called me, and she said, you know, we're getting grandma's house ready for the new owners, which was my cousin, so there was some transition time there. And if there's anything that you would want of Grandma's, Why don't you come to the house and see if there's anything you want to take, since you lost everything you had from her. And so, I did that, and that was a really interesting experience for me, because my grandmother was very, very beloved by her family. She had so many people had given her gifts from their travels and really beautiful things. And she had a lot of, you know, she was a cook, and had a lot of, like, nice dishware and things like that. And even though everyone in our family had already been through everything, there was still so much left. In fact, I found her Bible that she read every day that no one had taken, that had like little notes in it. So, I have that, which is great. I found, like a couple of things I had given her as gifts that I bought in Italy when I was traveling, that no one had taken. And there were a lot of other things too that were just like books or junk or whatever. But it was a real kind of realization of, you know, even the most precious things in your life when you die, it's going to be someone else's kind of junk to go through. And, you know, my mom's program from her wedding and her things like that. My mom didn't want that anymore. Yes, it hurts to think about the drawings your kids gave you that you don't have anymore, like all the photos. But you know, how often do you actually look at those things? And there has to be a place in your life just for memories and you can't have you can't hold on to everything forever in a meaningful way. It's comforting to know it's there, but the reality of it and how much joy it actually brings you in your daily life balanced like if you balance out the pain it causes you to not have it, versus how much joy it brings you in your daily life, just gave me a real perspective on things, even really special things that you can't replace. Yeah, I also have my parents gave me a box of, like, my old letters and journals and stuff from when I was a kid that had been stored at their house, that I did not lose in the fire because they were still at my parents. And I opened that up, and I just like, I took one look at my journal, and I was like, I don't want, I don't want to look at this. I am so a different person. I don't want my kids reading this. Yeah, I so, you know, and then I have a lot of, you know, there are things I still miss, photos from my honeymoon and wedding. But you know which happened before digital photos. I actually have a lot of photos from my kids when they were babies and things like that. So that's good, but I think I really like the book Man's Search for Meaning. And I think what he talks about in that, as far as you know, human suffering and the meaning of life and what he says about when everything else is stripped away, you know, the one thing we have is our ability to respond and our attitude toward our circumstances. And so, you know, that's a good thing to keep in mind too, that, you know, it really also helps you have a perspective on gratitude. And I was so grateful my kids were safe. You know, there were people in my neighborhood who who were in their swimming pools to survive, and other people who died, and we could have been trapped. If the fire had come from the other side of the hill, we could have been trapped, and we did not have a swimming pool. So, I was really, you know, relieved and grateful that we had each other. We were all fine. And really, you know, later on, a couple years later, one of our employees’ sons was killed in a car accident. He was very young, 21, I think. And there was no comparison. There's just no, what I what we experienced was nothing compared to the loss of a child in that way. So, it really gives you perspective. And, you know, it's, it was good for my kids too. It gave them a perspective on things, and, you know, material for their college applications. And in fact, I mean, that sounds kind of like a joke, but actually, when I read my daughter's college essay, it is meaningful for them to have a challenge, to go through and to have that experience of, you know, something that gives them perspective as well. Because our kids have pretty easy lives, you know, for the most part, and it was something that, you know, gave them a new perspective on life as well.
Jennifer Levin
Thank you for sharing all of that. Um, so in your professional life, you are the founder and president of Health Plus commerce. Did I say that, right? That's health and commerce. Okay, part of the supreme group. How has this experience impacted your leadership style?
Nicole Osmer
Well, I think it has made me a better like, let's see. It's definitely helped me kind of recognize the importance of a strong team, and also, I think not only that experience, but the experience with our employee who lost a son. Just, we're people, and people go through different things, and that at certain points in your life that's going to be the most important thing and more important than work, and we just have to come together as a team and adapt to accommodate when one person is down and out because they're dealing with a major life event. We need to pull together to support that person in any way possible. And you know, for the most part, the problem of someone being gone or being distracted or whatever, is a solvable problem that as a solution that we can come to together to give them the time and space that they need to kind of come back to where they are able to contribute and and get back to work. And in some cases, you know, work is a comfort, it's a distraction. It's something they want to
Jennifer Levin
Normal. Normalize.
Nicole Osmer
Yeah, everyone is going to handle things differently. So, I would never tell anyone, oh, you know, we don't, we don't need you. You're excused. Like, you know, it's what do they want what makes sense for them? And if what helps them is to have some normalcy and be able to think about work and not think about loss or, you know, then that's, that's fine. So, I think you have to be flexible, just like
Jennifer Levin
But I love how you said that we're people and we're people first, right? You know, I love that. And did this experience with not only the fires, but the unexpected, does that influence at all how you think about, you know, businesses and how they need to be prepared for things that can happen in the workplace?
Nicole Osmer
Yeah, I think one thing that we do at our agency is provide crisis communications support, and what is really critical for that is planning. So in any crisis, kind of thinking through a plan, having resources available is helpful, especially for larger organizations, because things are going to happen, you know, whether it's the death of an executive or an employee being arrested for something that is traumatic for the rest of the employees, or, you know, there's just things happen where people were messy and so I think having giving that some thought and having a little bit of a plan, or at least having those relationships with people, close relationships with people, I think maybe a metaphor is like, one of the things I learned from the fire was you should know your neighbors. Like, it's easy to live in a house and never meet your neighbors, and we're all busy doing our own things, but you know, luckily, we knew our neighbors, and we got to know a lot more of them through the process, and when we moved to Idaho, which was not related to the fire, but, you know, I make the effort to go and drop our holiday card at the front door of every house. I want them to know our names. I want to be, you know, we go over and try to meet them. Doesn't mean you have to be best friends with them, but you should know them. Know something about them and same in a work environment, you should know your fellow you know colleagues. You don't have to be best friends with them, but understand you know what they might need in a time of of emergency, or at least have a relationship where they'd be, you know, willing to call you and tell you like you need help, or say, I'm here to help you in a time of need.
Jennifer Levin
Actually, that brings me perfectly to my next point is, you know, one of the reasons I'm doing this podcast is so that we can help businesses support their employees after an unexpected crisis such as a fire. And one of the things that we know about a traumatic event is that it can always re trigger a previous trauma. And so that's just what you said about getting to know your neighbors, getting to know your employees. And so I'm curious for you, when you hear about fires, things like this. Does that trigger anything for you? What does that bring up for you now?
Nicole Osmer
So I live in Idaho, and there are fires sometimes here from just smoke, you know, from fire that are at night, wildfires in Idaho or from Oregon or California when the winds are blowing our way and that smoke smell in the air and the kind of haze that's like a visceral like smell, especially just brings me right back to like shopping in Walmart, like, zombies for clothes the day after the fire, and, like, all the people out for gas. And, like, it's like, you know, Apocalypse. So that's and I actually Labor Day weekend here. There was, it was very smoky. There was a fire somewhere in the area, and we left for the weekend because I don't want to be around it. It's yeah, I do not like it. And it's not only that, it's hard to breathe and ugly, but it's like an emotional response, good. So, I don't want to relieve that. But when I you know, hearing about the fires, um in Southern California, and there's no smoke here, of course, related to those right now, it's mostly just, like, really deep sympathy, because I've been there, I know what they're going through, and just the shock of it, and it's a big deal, you know, it's a big event, and it's hard, I hope that, you know, they are also able to recognize the Silver Linings that can come out of it. And it's been seven years and we're totally fine. You know, we did end up selling our property, but even the next spring, the daffodils came up, more beautiful than ever. A lot of the live oak trees survived. Surprisingly, it did transform the landscape, but it's still beautiful, and I'd love to go up there again soon. But nature does heal, and humans have an incredible ability to rebuild and better than before, and you can, you know, I'm sure that those areas and it's going to take time, undoubtedly it is going to take time, but, but it will, it will get better, and the pain does go away, but in the in the near term, I do have a lot of sympathy for them, because it's a real shock.
Jennifer Levin
Yes, you wrote, It is so much, and you wrote such a beautiful post on your LinkedIn profile on how to help families who've lost everything in a fire. And with your permission, we're going to put it in the show notes, if that's okay, for sure, and I'll share it on the traumatic grief solutions, LinkedIn post profile as well, because it was, it was obviously from personal experience, and that's how I got connected to you. So, I think being able to share with others from your experience, it's such a helpful thing to be able to do.
Nicole Osmer
A lot of people have asked me, What can I do to help I have, I know people who lost a house, and, you know, I mean, that is something that is really beautiful coming out of it is you feel so loved because people really want to help you and reach out to you. And you know, even people that I kind of thought had sort of forgotten about us really. You know, I had one of my clients offered to drive water to us, which we didn't need. There was water, but it was very sweet. And then, you know, other people that created, a lot of people do want to give money because, and that's understandable. It's a little bit of if you, if you don't really need the money, it feels not great to accept money from your friends. I mean, we, one of my uncles gave us, I think, $5,000 and that was amazing. And we, we, we, it is expensive to lose everything, but I don't want to take money from friends. That's not that doesn't feel right. So yeah, giving people somewhere something to support that you want to support, whether it's a local organization or a local school or another local family that really does need the help, that maybe didn't have insurance, or that didn't have the savings, I think people that's a very natural response to want to help.
Jennifer Levin
So, one final question for you before we close. As a business leader, what would you recommend or suggest to other business leaders on how they can support employees who've lost a home in the Southern California fires right now?
Nicole Osmer
Well, everyone's situation is so different, but I think, you know, an organization like yours is an amazing resource, and being able to provide and that isn't actually something I had considered before for my employees when they've been through traumatic situations. But you know, we actually did have one employee that had a very difficult newborn, and we paid for a night nurse for her for a little while, just because it was clearly just so needed. And, you know, so providing access to a resource like yours, or if there's something, you know, if they could look into their benefits and see if there is something like an employee assistance program that can help just having a resource to help process it, I think in the immediate term could be really helpful. I know our school had counseling for the kids. I think actually one thing I would mention too, this is kind of an aside, but later we were involved in a lawsuit, because PG&E was liable for the fire, and we had to document the emotional impact and the fact that our kids had been to a counselor and there was a record of kind of what they were going through, actually was helpful, which you don't really think about. So, like actually using those, those resources to to help you process the near term, both the psychological part of it, but also just the logistical like, Okay, we need to go, you know, buy a new car, or put our kids in different schools, or, you know, even just consider, do we? Does it make sense right now to stay in the area? Or should we actually even look at going to move somewhere out of state? Could we work remotely if we needed to just really thinking through all of the different aspects of what it's going to take to get to the new normal. I think can be sympathetic there and like, you know, provide resources or practical help for further people is great and not I think that a lot of people say, What can I do to help? But really saying, I have a counselor lined up, you're welcome to call. We'll pay for it, just like you would pay for employee professional development coaching or whatever like here. I just don't want you to have to, I already identified someone they were, you know, finding a recommended resource, and then just proactively providing it to the employee could be great, or asking that resource someone like yourself, you know, for some specific ideas too, of what could be helpful, because if you haven't been through it. It's really hard to know what someone's going through, then would be helpful.
Jennifer Levin
Oh, great. Well, thank you so much for your time today. It's such a pleasure getting to spend some time with you.
Nicole Osmer
Thank you, and thanks for the work that you're doing. I hope this is helpful.
Jennifer Levin
Very much so, so thank you very much, Nicole.
